Where are the Atheists on this One?

Friends,

I wonder if any of our atheist friends out there will be raising a stink about this one? They seem to hate Christians, how do they feel about another religion running things? In this linked story (it’s very short), we learn about Muslims in Michigan.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/08/michigan_city_could_become_fir.php

Calling all atheists: Come out of the Closet and speak out against this horrible development! We need you now more than ever! Please, I’m begging you: Speak out against this fusion of religion and state.

Thanks,

jerry

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  1. Joe

    What is the supposed church state issue here? If the Muslims in charge follow the US constitution then their religion is irrelevant.

    That is the POINT of church state separation. It does not bother me that theists hold office, it only bothers me when they try to use their political power to push their religion on others.

  2. Strange, Joe, that is exactly the answer I knew that I would receive. Thanks for once again pointing out that the only real enemy of the atheist is the Christian faith!

    The very fact that they are being promoted as Muslims is the issue here. But, as I said, typical.

    What would your response be if Christians wanted to announce prayer times over loudspeakers? Or have prayers before graduations? Or prayers in locker rooms? Or prayers in classrooms?

    Typical.

    jerry

  3. I agree with Joe. This seems to be a case where Christians are uncomfortable with the prospect of having elected leaders that don’t share their religious views; in the words of Grandpa Simpson, “Welcome to my world”. Perhaps this might spur more Christians to fight for church/state separation.

  4. Joe

    “What would your response be if Christians wanted to announce prayer times over loudspeakers? Or have prayers before graduations? Or prayers in locker rooms? Or prayers in classrooms?”

    THOSE are church state separation issues! When the Muslims do this I assure you, atheists will complain. How can you compare a Muslim simply holding political office to obvious violations of others religious freedoms by Christians?

    The government should not be running or advocating any religious observances so that Christians, Muslims and atheists can believe and practice what they wish.

    The entire POINT of church state separation is that if they ARE kept separate then the religion of the politician’s is irrelevant!

  5. Joe’s right.
    Anyone of any faith can hold any position of political power they like. It’s only when they start using their religion/faith to force that religion on others (or give their own faith an unfair advantage) that problems arise.

  6. Dan

    Dangoldfinch,
    Wow, please tell me that you aren’t really this bigoted. This is a democracy, and if they’re voted into office fairly, what’s the difference?

    Or would you prefer we put all of the Muslims in concentration camps?

  7. Dan, what is bigoted about posting a story about Muslims running for office and asking where the ACLU and other atheists are? How on earth do you get bigotry out of that? Or do you define words like some of my evolutionist friends?

    Actually, what I would prefer is that Muslims stop killing people who won’t convert to their religion. (Have you seen the stories of the Christians being held hostage by the Taliban? Have you see the stories about the two Christians killed by the Taliban? Do you remember September 11, 2001 when close to 4,000 Americans were killed by Muslims?) Oh, sure, it’s a good idea to have them running a city in the US unchallenged and unchecked.

    Why don’t you move there yourself?

    There’s no bigotry here, only uncensored incredulity.

    jerry

    ps–Dan, thanks for stopping by.

  8. Joe

    In case you were really wondering. This is the bigotry:
    “Come out of the Closet and speak out against this horrible development!”

    “Actually, what I would prefer is that Muslims stop killing people who won’t convert to their religion. (Have you seen the stories of the Christians being held hostage by the Taliban? Have you see the stories about the two Christians killed by the Taliban? Do you remember September 11, 2001 when close to 4,000 Americans were killed by Muslims?) Oh, sure, it’s a good idea to have them running a city in the US unchallenged and unchecked.”

  9. Joe,

    With all due respect, you are not making any sense. Just what is the atheist definition of ‘bigotry’? I’m asking for nothing more than what R Dawkins has asked of all atheists: Come out of the closet. Do you think Muslims will run a city apart from Islamic law? If you do, you are more of a fool than I thought. What about those stories I referenced? Is there any bigotry involved when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim? You are backward, man. Really, really backward.

    Besides, this is hardly a criticism of the Muslims. They do have a right to run for office if they are US Citizens. I’m criticizing hypocritical atheists who are not saying anything about it, but who cry foul when when the US President references his own Christian faith. These men are running as Muslims, not as Americans who happen to practice Islam. That is no different than if I ran for office as a Christian, because I’m a Christian, instead of as an American. I think it is the peak of hypocrisy if some atheists and the ACLU doesn’t start crying foul on this one.

    Now, what is your definition of bigotry again? What is bigoted about my expression of concern over those running for a political office in the US who belong to the same religion as those who kill innocent people, fly airplanes into buildings, persecute people in Egypt for being Christian, force others to convert to Islam on pain of death, subject women to great indignity, attack our ships, blow up foreign consulates, and so on, and so forth?

    Yes, I’m the bigot here (said with extreme sarcasm). Sir, your head is on crooked or buried in the sand. If you don’t have anything constructive to say, please, please go away, but you are arguing simply to argue and you have no idea of what you are speaking.

    jerry

  10. Joe

    When these individuals act in their positions to violate the religious freedom of their citizens then atheists and the ACLU will “cry fowl”. There is no and should be no law against (or for) any particular religious person holding any office in this country. The fact that you believe that atheists would support such laws shows your gross misunderstanding of the atheist position. Most government offices in this country are held by Christians and this doesn’t bother me at all. What bothers me is when they subvert the constitution to force their religion on others. When these Muslims do that, then they are a problem. Until then I have no reason to believe they will do anything worse than any other politician.

    Your bigotry is evident in statements like: “Actually, what I would prefer is that Muslims stop killing people who won’t convert to their religion. (Have you seen the stories of the Christians being held hostage by the Taliban? Have you see the stories about the two Christians killed by the Taliban? Do you remember September 11, 2001 when close to 4,000 Americans were killed by Muslims?)”
    As if all or even a majority of Muslims would ever do such things. have you heard about the Christians holding Muslims hostage at Guantanamo bay and subjecting them to torture? have you heard about them invading Muslims countries and driving them into civil war and chaos? Who could possibly want Christians to hold any elected office?

    Attributing the immoral actions of a few to a much larger group because of a shared characteristic is bigotry.

  11. Joe,

    I’m trying so hard to be nice about this, but you are beyond reason. I never said it was all Muslims. Where did you read that? But I did say that I wish Muslims who kill people who won’t convert to Islam would stop killing people. Where is the bigotry in hoping for the end of murder and such evil? Only liberals think Iraq is in civil war. You read only what you want to read, and I sense in you more of an affection for those who are the avowed enemies of America than for America.

    Do you think, if Muslims take over this country, or invade, that they will spare you because you hate Christians? Do you think they will spare you because you are an atheist? They won’t. They want you to be a Muslim. Period. Your atheism is just as detestable to them as my Christianity. It starts with a representative from Minnesota. Then its a small out of the way community in Michigan. (Strangely enough, but not ironically, that Muslim from Minnesota, now in the HOR, is a democrat.) And then, before long, it’s a senator, then a governor, then it’s an entire state, then congress, then the white house–then, as they have stated their goals elsewhere, the flag of Islam will fly over this country. Don’t you doubt it. That is the stated goal of many, many radical Islamists.

    I get it though by your statements about Iraq, and war. What was it when Saddam Husseine invaded Kuwait (that was a Muslim invading a Muslim country). What is it when Iran invaded Iraq back in the 70’s or 80’s (that was Islam vs. Islam)? What is it when Syrians enter Iraq and blow up other Muslims? Have you read Kite Runner by Khalede Hussseini? There’s even a ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ kind of Islam! What is it when Shi’as kill Sunnis? Is that bigotry too? What is it when radical Palestinians kill Jews in Israel? Is that bigotry too? You are way off base.

    You are another bleeding heart liberal with no sense of morals and no sense whatsover of justice and no sense whatsoever of what is required of those in political office who vow to uphold and defend our constitution. You would blame everyone in the world for the problems of the world but you wouldn’t look at yourself first. I’ll be you are a college professor. Would you prefer our president allow whatever nation wants to to fly airplanes into buildings killing Americans? Would you prefer the war be fought here?

    There is no evidence of people being tortured at G-Bay by Christians as such (I don’t know of any evidence of anyone being tortured at G-Bay. I heard they eat better than I do. I’ve heard of POW’s being questioned for information). There is no evidence whatsoever that such a claim is true, and I think you should revise your statement and do some research (or the other way around). That would make all in the military Christians, since there are also Muslims in our army, and atheists, and Buddhists, etc. Muslims are not being held hostage either; war criminals are being held as POW’s and many have already been released (some fear being released because they will probably be killed, by Muslims, when they go back home).

    Your pathetic blindness to the whole truth is typical of liberals (and atheists, and I’m not surprised that you seem to be both). If you don’t like my opinion on things, as I said, go away. No one is forcing to you read what I think.But if you think you can make such statements and get away with them, you are wrong. The bottom line is, it is the few Muslims who think America is the Great Satan, and the few who kill Christians (Taliban), and the few who kill other Muslims (Shi’as), and the few who fly airplanes into buildings in the US, at the Pentegon, in PA, into the USS Cole, into the World Trade Centers (2’xs), into the Marine Barracks in Beirut, into our foreign consultes, who kill Jews because they are Jews, who subject women to intolerable conditions, who give the whole lot of Muslims a very, very bad name. That’s not bigotry. That’s the truth.

    As I have been told by some evolutionists, a whole bunch of micro-evolutions eventually leads to a macro-evolution. A whole bunch of micro-evil Muslims has led to a whole bunch of macro-concern among many Americans and Christians around the world. But thanks for your misunderstanding. I’m glad to educate you on what you refuse to see and acknowledge.

    Your friend,
    jerry

  12. Joe

    And you produce a long bigoted rant to prove my point. Why do you hate Muslims? Why do you equate the Iraqi people with the “avowed enemies of America”? Why do you act as if there was some connection between Iraq and the events of 9/11/01? (We invaded Afghanistan because it was the base of operations for Al Quaeda, then we invaded Iraq for no good reason.)

    You are so bigoted you can’t even recognize a parody of your bigotry. (For the record I do not blame any Christian for the action of any other, or color the group with the actions of a few.)

    I just hope trading your security for your humanity is worth it for you.

  13. Joe,

    I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m sorry you misunderstand me and the concerns I have.

    I’m also sorry that I have mistreated you and spoken to you in a harsh way and called you by inappropriate names.

    Perhaps, Joe, you and I could be friends, and we could carry on a civil discussion without all the barbs and anger. I’m willing to start fresh. I forgive you for thinking I’m a bigot because I have fears about such things.

    Again, I sincerely apologize to you for mistreating you, my guest.

    jerry

  14. Joe

    I just can’t imagine you wouldn’t see it as bigotry if someone was despairing over the fact that Christians had been elected to the majority and well the whole country is going to go to hell in a hand basket now.

    I don’t want to get to name calling either. I doubt you are really bigoted and I know that is harsh language. But I see the attitudes that lead to fear and hatred of “the other” that results in much of the evils that humans have done to each other in this world.

    I apologize for my part in bringing the conversation to the level of name calling.




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