More Homosexual Sin Tolerated in the Church

Friends,

I listened to a lecture by David Wells today, “The Disappearance of Evangelical Theology, pt 2”. It was an amazing lecture touching on many key points that have led to the demise in Evangelical Christians being taken seriously.

At one point he comments about how ‘worldliness’ has managed to find a home in, of all places, the church: “Our world has made normal the values of our fallenness. Worldliness in any culture is the centering of man and the exiling of God and His Truth. It makes sin look normal, and righteousness strange.” (A bit of that is paraphrase, but it captures the heart of his comments.)

This is, I think, what is going on in the church when it comes to homosexuality. Homosexuals began by wanting to have the freedom to ‘come out of the closet’ (much like Richard Dawkins is now encouraging atheists to do). Once they are ‘out’, they want radical normalization to take place. This includes, special rights, insistance on not be discriminated against simply because they are homosexuals, and they want to ‘educate’ which means ‘evangelize.’ (Seinfeld made a joke about this one time. He said something like, “I’ll bet that’s one of the selling points when they’re recruiting” (He was talking about clothing. But even he, tongue in cheek to be sure, recognized an underlying current.)

Well, in our culture, homosexuality has been rather successfully normalized and now their is a popular trend of indoctrination. I seriously doubt anyone is going to stop this, but this one thing I must say. It must stop in the church. Here’s what we read:

A day after the nation’s largest Lutheran denomination voted to encourage its bishops to practice “restraint” in disciplining gay ministers who are in “faithful” same-sex relationships, St. John’s Lutheran Church – Atlanta’s oldest Lutheran church – celebrated Sunday the continuing pastorship of the Rev. Bradley Schmeling.

Earlier this year, Schmeling, who announced that he found a lifelong gay companion, was ordered to be removed immediately from the clergy roster. The order by the Committee on Appeals overruled an earlier decision by a disciplinary committee which said Schmeling should be allowed to remain on the clergy roster until after ELCA’s biennial churchwide assembly, Aug. 6-12. The committee also suggested that ELCA reinstate gay clergy who were removed or resigned because they were in a same-sex “lifelong partnership.”

Despite the removal, Schmeling refused to leave St. John’s and said he planned to continue to follow his call in ministry there.

Furthermore, although the gay clergy debate was expected to come up in 2009, Schmeling was a major part of the push at this year’s assembly to lift the ban on non-celibate homosexual clergy. By

Audrey Barrick

Christian Post Reporter

Tue, Aug. 14 2007 01:00 PM ET

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070814/28897_Defrocked_Gay_Pastor_Returns_to_Pulpit.htm

The homosexuals in the church are becoming more and more militant. Lest I be construed as a bigot, allow me to say that culturally there is not much anyone can do, but the church is not defined culturally. It is defined by Jesus Christ. Homosexuality has been far to rationalized, normalized, and too many have been evangelized and indoctrinated for the culture to turn back. However, in the church, this has got to stop. Who is going to take a stand? When will the church realize that this is damnation in the house of God, judgment from God? When will people realize that just because the culture normalizes sin doesn’t mean that it is no longer sin? In Wells’ words, quoting Yeats, we have lost the center. This is man-centered doctrines advancing forcefully, and the church is welcoming it in with a smile and the right hand of fellowship.

If Islam doesn’t do it first, homosexuality will be the undoing of the evangelical church in the United States.

 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.  (1 Timothy 1:8-11, TNIV)

Lord have mercy on your people! Lord forgive! Forgive! And yet, Lord, purify your church! There is no compatibility between homosexuality and the Church of Jesus Christ.

jerry

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10 thoughts on “More Homosexual Sin Tolerated in the Church

  1. Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I try to share that knowledge of God’s Christian Law with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

    1) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    2) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    3) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness – Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

    4) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Americans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify why I can’t own Canadians?

    5) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or should I get someone else to do it?

    6) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

    7) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    8) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    9) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton / polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

  2. Robyn,

    I sincerely appreciate your humor! You are one funny person. Ironically, you are seriously misguided. I have searched my blog carefully, since I usually put any Scripture I reference in a post into my categories, and I don’t see where I have made reference to the book of Leviticus, anywhere, or even in this particular post. Could you show me? It appears that you mistook 1 Timothy, a New Testament book written to the Church, for an Old Testament book written to a group of people collectively known as Israelites.

    So, if you wish to follow a strict Jewish interpretation of the book of Leviticus, who I am to judge you? If you feel that your life will be somehow enhanced by following those Laws, and if you think you will bring honor to God by following those Laws, then feel free. However, your following or not following these laws (and 700 others) in no negates what Paul, and apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, said to the Church about the holiness and purity of the church, and the holiness that is to be manifest in those who follow Christ Jesus. The homosexual crowd can try and try and try, but you will not change the Word of God through any means, at all. You are right about one thing: God’s Word is eternal and unchanging and Jesus promised that not one single stroke would disappear.

    But I say this: Go ahead and keep on defending sin in the Church if that’s what you wish to do. I can’t stop you by writing a blog. (All a blog is is an opinion.) That’s between you and the Holy God into whose hands you have placed your decision. And, that same Scripture that won’t fall says, ‘It is a dangerous thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.’ (Hebrews)

    How’s that for some Scripture quotation?

    regards,
    jerry

    PS–your welcome!

  3. [Friends, I have not edited anything in this reply. I am leaving it exactly as it was written by ‘John’. There is so much wrong with this reply that I am leaving it to make my case against homosexuality. Notice the manner in which Scripture is ‘reimagined’, ‘reinterpreted’ (contra any orthodox or historical interpretation), and simply abused to make a point. John, do you really want me to point out to you what Scripture says about homosexuality being an affront to a holy God? Or are you just trying to justify yourself? There is not compatibility between homosexual practice and the Scripture, which means there is none between the homosexual and God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.–Jerry]

    paul says in romans 8 that we are now led by the spirit, and ,thru faith and grace, if we do we that we do not sin. this is opposed to the spirit of our sin nature which brings death. jesus said that our battle is not against flesh and blood but powers and principalites. paul also says that we serve the spirit in a new way not in the old way to the written code. that being the case.

    what is the essence of the spirit of homosexuality that it would come against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ. if the fruit of the spirit is peace is homosexuality unpeaceful. unloving, unkind, without goodness, without joy.

    knowing that all laws are summed up in love your neighbor……. in what way does homosexuality come against loving your neighbor? if it is not loving then in what spirit is it to its neighbor.

    paul say in romans that we see god’s eternal presence and divine power thru what has been created. no man is without excuse. what is the essence of homosexuality, of what spirit is it created, in its creation, that would make it oppose this divine power and eternal presence.

  4. the scriptures that refer to same sex relations

    lev not everything prohibited in lev of itself is not a sin. such as household chores on the sabbath.

    num 15: 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

    gen ……..gang rape

    romans involves abandonment of present relations motivated by shame based lust.

    1tim and 1cor..the actual (kjv)translation “defying onesself with mankind”

    heterosexuality………human bonding motivated by mutual, trust,love, attraction, and respect.

    lustful acts of rape and orgies has never been used to condemn the orientation of heterosexuality. why should it be any different for homosexuality. unless you have a 1john1 witness thru fellowship (i say fellowship because in fellowship we walk in the light)of your brothers in christ who say in their hearts that attraction is from god. then tell me your witness. s

    if you have no witness, then explain the spirit nature of homosexuality. how does it violate love your neighbor……………..

    otherwise please explain your understanding of being led by the spirit and SERVING THE SPIRIT IN A NEW WAY apart from the old to the written code.

    1 thess 5:21 test everything and keep the good. beliefs have no spirit test, but ar based on traditional understanding.

    romans 12:22Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    we do not test something by merely repeating what we believe…………we test it thru a spirit witness,in fellowship that provides testimony.

    if you have no witness test, then you are standing on unsubstiated belief.

    if i asked the same of murder. you would easily launch into that anyone you witnessed who indulged murder was without any compassion filled with narcissim. were without gratitude and obsessed with self gratification, filled with deceit and rage.

  5. John,

    I appreciate the effort you are making, but you obviously have read only the Scriptures you wanted to read and paid no heed to the entire canon, nor have you submitted to the authority of Jesus Christ as the Head of the Church.

    If you had read the canon, I’ll say as a concession, even just the New Testament, you would see that there is ample evidence given against heterosexual perversion as well as homosexual practice (for example, Paul spends a considerable amount of space in Corinthians condemning an incestuous, heterosexual relationship, and the book of Hebrews says, ‘keep the marriage bed pure’, Jesus even spoke against heterosexual divorce!). And the church has reacted strongly against paedophilia scandals that have rocked certain other denominations, and against extra-marital affairs of certain clergy–such as Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and others. “Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery” made it into the Ten Commandments after all.

    The problem, as I see it, is that there are no large, militant, groups of swingers out there trying to persuade the church to ‘accept’ their swinging ways, or allow them to be clergy who promote ‘swinging’ from the pulpit. And, to be sure, if they did, they would be roundly condemned as heretics who are participating in wholly, unbiblical and unjustifiable behavior. (Even if they aren’t doing this in churches, they are practicing wholly, unbiblical and unjustifiable behavior, as are homosexuals). My point, in short, is that the New Testament and Old Testament insist that Christians practice Holy Sex within the confines of Marriage: One Man, One Woman, One Marriage. Period. End of discussion. Outside of that, sexual activity is roundly condemned.

    I don’t need to necessarily ‘test’ the ‘spirit of homosexuality’. The Scripture condemns it. The only people in the church (and world) who are trying to normalize the sin of homosexuality for the church and in the world are those who do not take a high view of Scripture and submit to its authority.

    So, in that respect, ‘love’ is not really all that matters, nor what justifies practice of anything. Christians are a people of the Cross of Christ. God loves, yes. But sin is still sin and will still be punished if the sinner remains unrepentant.

    Romans speaks of homosexuality as judgment upon those who have rejected God. In either case, there is no justification for homosexuality. Re-read Romans 1. Genesis, ‘gang rape’, I’m not sure what you mean, unless you are talking about S & G, in which case judgment was poured out on them for their wickedness.

    I don’t see what your reference in Numbers has to do with anything.

    I pray for your search, but as far as Scripture is concerned, you have some work to do. I’ll pray for you from time to time that God may give you ‘the spirit of wisdom and revelation’ that you may see plainly into these matters.

    regards,
    jerry

  6. dear jerry

    ive listed the scriptures referring to same sex relationships…..excuse the typing error 1 tim or 1cor………..its(kjv) “defiling oneself with mankind”…………………..how is this specifically reference to homosexuality?

    in generaL lev thru romans refer to same sex relations, 1cor and 1tim is so vague that it is a mere possibility. but for the sake of arguement let us say the all apply to same sex relations. what does that have to do with homosexuality.

    what does incest, orgies, statutory rape, gang rape, pederasty have to with heterosexual human bonding………..the coupling of two of the opposite sex initiated by mutual trust, respect, love ,and attraction. for the purpose of having a commited shared life with another.

    if you credit homosexual human bonding with the same possibilities as heterosexual human bonding then the same distincrt difference to destructive sexual practices applies. the bonded relationship embraces the three commandments to love. the perverse sexual practices come against them.

    the scriptures you refer to 1cor 5…………. incest, hebrews………………..adultery and sexual immoralty, would violate the same commandments.

    never heard of holy sex ….please annotate.

    i agree god calls each person to be faithful to another human being……………….why shouldnt what was said of a heterosexual coupling not carry over to homosexual coupling as well.

    surely you agree that all scripture, being god breathed, has more than one meaning , none contradicting the other. there is no contradiction if the same refers to marriages of either orientation.

    just because ther is no specific reference to homosexuality, does not mean it doesn’t. to say its absence means this othat is to assume the mind of god. ………………which scripture clearly says man does not know.

    you can pick and chose what to test……………………but iscripture clearly says “everything.” and in both romans and 1thess the translation is in the imperative which means a “command”

    you say that love (agape) does not justify a practice.. im assuming you are saying that love does not justify homosexuality.

    then what is your understanding of

    15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    and

    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

    aren’t they saying that if you produce the fruit of the spirit, then you are a good tree. if you are a bad tree then you cannot produce the fruit of the spirit. if gay committed relationships produce the fruit of the spirit, then they are good trees, and are pleasing to god.

    romans speaks of same sex practices initiated by abandoment, motivated by shame based sexual lust…………….somethinbg that clearly violates the the three commandments…..sexual lust means being given over to sexual obssession and obsesion of sexual pleasure..

    what possible connection can this have to human bonding.

    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    “they exchanged the truth of god for a lie.”

    if the lie was about the existence of god, and refers to romans 1:20. then this scenario does not apply to your gay brothers who worship and serve christ and believe in god.

    john

  7. John,

    Once again, I appreciate your efforts, but you are still mistaken. I’ll only comment on a couple of points because your argument has not changed, and my position has not changed.

    First, I don’t know what your second paragraph means.

    Second, your fourth paragraph is flawed because I don’t credit homosexual practices with the same possibilities as heterosexual practice. The Scripture, our rule of faith and practice, does not ever condone homosexual practice. In fact, it condemns it on more than one occasion as an abomination before God and a sin of man.

    Third, your eighth paragraph is also flawed. All Scripture is, in fact, God breathed. However, it only has one meaning. Scripture does not exist to justify man, but to Justify God. Scripture reveals a Holy God who justly condemns the sin of man and atones man and Himself in the Cross of Christ. Scripture has one meaning, not many. And there is simply no way for the homosexual agenda to be justified by Scripture–no matter how you reinterpret the Scripture, no matter how you twist its meaning.

    Fourth, ‘holy’ sex is a sexual relationship between a man and a woman in the confines of marriage which justly brings glory to God by serving its intended purpose: procreation and the ‘bonding’ of the man and woman into one. God gave these two instructions in Genesis. Paul wrote in Ephesians that the relationship between a husband and a wife illustrates the relationship between Christ and His Church. That is also what I mean by holy sex. Homosexual realtionships will never accomplish this, nor can they.

    Fifth, no comments are necessary about ‘testing.’

    Sixth, you are right. I am saying that not even love justifies homosexuality in practice. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t, because it is not holy. And if even one Scripture condemns it, well… (I don’t see Timothy and Corinthians as vague at all.)

    Seventh, fruit produced outside of the boundaries of holiness is not fruit and is, essentially, meaningless. I know plenty of people who display the ‘fruit of the Spirit’ who are in no way remotely belonging to Christ. The argument is rather that those who belong to Christ cannot fail to produce such fruit. And those who claim to belong to Christ who fail to produce this fruit cannot possible belong to Christ. However, Scripture must not be taken in isolation. So, if a person is producing ‘fruit’ and at the same time practicing sin unrepentantly, such as homosexuality, then there is something flawed with their overall character, something wrong with their relationship to Christ. He calls us to be ‘holy’ as ‘God is holy.’

    I’m sorry you cannot see these things. And I’m sorry if you want validation from me or from Scripture, but, again, Scripture defines who we are, how we are to live, to whom we belong, and the character of the One to Whom we belong. Scripture says, ‘The homosexual offender…will not inherit the Kingdom of God.’ I didn’t write it. I don’t have permission to change it. The homosexual, like the thief, like every other sinner on the planet, is called to repent of their sin and submit to Christ’s authority.

    jerry

  8. you give no scriptural basis for showing that the same sex practices referred to in scripture, has anything to do with homosexuality. the “same sex practices” of gen… rape, romans orgies and sexual addiction1 tim and 1cor…………pederasty. “defiling ” would be practices that cause low self esteem and self hatred.

    where in scripture does it say that love is not love if it is not holy? are you attempting to rewrite 1cor 13 which says that anything that doesnt have love is nothing. an inference that even holiness is nothing if it has not love.

    god is love. but god is not god if it is not holy.

    the fruit of the spirit is not the fruit of the spirit if it is not holy……………………where could you possibly get this from scripture.

    i myself can do nothing to make my myself holy. it is only the christ that lives within me that makes me holy. my homosexual brothers in christ within whom christ lives lead holy lives. not from anything they do of themselves(our righteous acts being like dirty rags) but from what christ living within them does. so we are set apart by faith and the grace that works thru that faith.

    ephesians 2:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

    romans 8:You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

    1cor3:16Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

    you will not test your understanding of “homosexual offender”. knowing that the term “homosexual” was an eighteenth century term injected into a 2000 year old text.

    knowing that paul we are led by the spirit that lives within us…………………do you see any conflict with that understanding, and your being led by your untested understanding of the law.

    you have a good point about a man being to a wife like christ is to the church. however you are saying that god limits himself to form, as to the embodiment of his spirit. scripture gives no evidence of that whatsoever. form being that its more than just two souls bonded together in christ’s love…………………….. they have to be in addition of two different genders.

    it really becomes a problem with testosterone levels and other biological specifics in some specific cases as to whom in a particular union would be the man and whom would be the woman.

    god has always emphasized the heart. are you willing to alter that understanding with your own emphasis.

    are you saying that faith in christ is agreeing with your understaning of the law.

    if paul says we are led by the spirit, it would seem that that our understanding of sin would be led by a spirit understanding and a spirit test, thru fellowship in christ. not a legal one.. knowing that our salvation is apart from following the law……………….. the law existing for conscious.

    isnt that what the courts provides when a law has multiple conflicting understandings……………im talking about a spirit test………….in other words which understanding falls within the “spirit intent “.of the constitution.

    your refusal to test feels like you are worried about the evidence.

    it is interesting that in both cases: homosexual acts being legalized and legalized marriage. i have heard of no one presenting any new evidence in an attempt to reverse those findings.

    .

  9. John,

    what is there to test? Scripture says homosexuality is a sin and that it is wrong. I am not attempting to re-write Scripture you are. What do I have to fear if I read Scripture? I have nothing to fear by testing anything. I’m not the one who is denying what Scripture says, you are.

    I don’t need to defend my understanding of this, and you cannot.

    I have no idea what you are talking about in paragraph 1.

    The very nature of humanity should teach you that homosexuality is not only a sin, but an abomination and an unnatural expression of sexual desires. You cannot justify homosexuality from Scripture. I don’t know how to make this more plane to you. It cannot be done.

    Finally, I don’t know what ‘spirit’ you are being led by because the Spirit of Christ will not lead a person into sin, but into truth (John). How you can justify sin in the face of a Holy God is beyond me. As I said in a previous post, you are only reading the parts of Scripture you want to read. You are attempting to re-write Scripture to suit your own, or least others’, sinful way of life.

    Good luck with that because when it all gets right down to brass tacks, you are hoping that a life of sin is compatible with a holy God. Indeed, you are hoping His grace is big enough to welcome people who persist in unrighteousness despite the fact that He has said ‘be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.’ And,

    Good Luck!
    jerry

    Oh, since you are fond of quoting John’s letter about testing and love, I thought you might also consider this: “Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or knows him.” (1 John 3:3-6)

    And also, “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:8-10)

    The onus is on you to prove that homosexuality is not a sin. And since Scripture declares it to be a sin, and Scripture cannot be broken, I don’t think you can do that apart from calling God a liar. But again, Good Luck!

    Now, we can continue if you like, but you will not change my mind. I will persist in trying to persuade you, from Scripture, but I assure you that my mind is perfectly clear on these matters and will not change.

  10. dear jerry

    it was never my intent to change your mind, what changes that may happen, will come thru a total life experience.

    my exchange with you is merely to understand the reasoning of your position,. and to see if it is any different from those who share your same position.

    the fact that you are able to discuss it is kudos to you.

    my approach to scripture is seek to understand the essence of the spirit of sin and the essence of the spirit of christ. mainly because paul says that we now serve the spirit in a new way, which now leads, and lives in us. .

    my belief is that god calls each of us to acknowledge what we witness in our hearts….where christ lives. this is apart from what we believe or understand about scripture.

    when robinson was elected bishop. i took it upon myself to study scripture and decide for myself what i believed scripture said about homosexuality.

    after arriving at a no sin position i took it upon myself to begin attending the mcc church (300 person congregation,.100% gay, mostly couples) where i live ,to see if my witness supported my understanding.

    what i witnessed was a dedicated body of believers who held up christ as their lord and savior. their worship was sincere and fervent. the testimonies about their orientation always includued christ. i came looking for a diminished spirit because of the orientation supported, a spirit of denial, a perversion of the gospel, or a spirit of deceit . i found none.

    what i did find was an incredible gentle, inclusive, supportive, spirit of devoted worship, as great, if not greater than of any heterosexual church i have attended..

    “by their fruits you shall know them.”

    the test that i am suggesting is a test of witness in fellowship in and of the spirit of christ.

    (1john1)7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

    john

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