The Morality of Global Warming & the Pope

Friends,

In the story headlined by these words, “Pope to Make Climate Action a Moral Obligation“, we read these words:

The Pope is expected to use his first address to the United Nations to deliver a powerful warning over climate change in a move to adopt protection of the environment as a “moral” cause for the Catholic Church and its billion-strong following.

And this:

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, head of the Catholic Church in the UK, said last night: “This is a crucial issue both today and for all future generations. We are the stewards of creation and we need to take that responsibility seriously and co-operate to care for the created world.”

Now, here’s what I wonder. Will the pope make this moral obligation an obligation for all nations in the world? Why is this a ‘crucial issue’? I wonder if the pope will make this a mandatory obligation for, say, China? Russia? Why is it that whenever I hear anyone say anything about global warming I only hear about what Americans are supposed to be doing about it?

Does the Chinese government require their citizens to buy ‘carbon credits’? Do the Russians recycle? Do Canadians drive cars that are ‘hybrid’ (which spare absolutely no energy at all)? Are there any other countries in the world creating those dangerous green house gasses or is the United States the only nation in the world without enough trees?

I thought the pope was the head of the Catholic Church? Why doesn’t the pope stick to things that matter? This pope, like his predecessors, is unbelievably arrogant. What right does he have to speak for anyone, to anyone, about this? This is an angry post because I get so tired of this stupidity. Why doesn’t the pope take some of all that money that the Catholic Church has and use it to do something meaningful (besides paying off the people abused by priests and jet-setting around the world delivering up his ‘thus sayeth the Lord’ about global warming?) Does he have nothing better to do?

Isn’t one Al Gore in this world enough?

“Benedict is the spiritual head of 19 per cent of the world’s population and a highly respected figure. If the Pope’s words are taken on board by his community that is one big constituency for change and could well turn the tide on climate change and environmental degradation.”

I agree: I demand right now that the sun stop shining. Oh wait. It’s night. OK. I’ll start tomorrow. (At 8:15 PM tonight, it was 63 degrees Fahrenheit where I was at.) I read an email from an acquaintance who lives in FLA who says that a local radio personality was complaining about the unusually cold weather; it was 70 degrees.) I wish the Pope would stay in Rome.

jerry

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  1. Joe

    Yes, it is indeed horrible that a public religious figure should speak out about what could possibly be the biggest problem in all of human history. For shame.

  2. Joe,

    Thanks for stopping by. The problem with your statement is, of course, that it is patently wrong. The biggest problem in all of human history is sin. It is the sin of man that is responsible for untold millions of premature deaths through euthanasia, abortion, drug abuse, murder, drinking and driving, war, genocide, famine, plague, and, to be sure, environmental disasters such as tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, and the like. But thanks once again for stopping by and offering your opinion even if your opinion is terribly, terribly wrong.

    jerry

  3. Joe

    I would say even if what you wrote regarding sin were true, global warming still has the potential to be worse. It could possibly extinguish the human species.

  4. Joe,

    Since there is simply no consensus of scientists, and scientists vary in their interpretation of the data, I would say that is about the most absurd thing you have ever said. The truth is, since sin is responsible for every single death that has ever occured, and since all will die, logically speaking, global warming cannot possibly be more deadly than sin. “As in Adam, all die…” Joe, with all due respect that is simply paranoid fear and extreme hyperbole. You cannot even scientifically justify such a statement.

    jerry

  5. Joe

    “The truth is, since sin is responsible for every single death that has ever occured”
    Haha. Wow, I guess you know how to cover your bases. I suppose sin is involved in the death of the still born and the crib deaths. You seem to live in a very simple world.

    “Since there is simply no consensus of scientists, and scientists vary in their interpretation of the data, I would say that is about the most absurd thing you have ever said.”
    You think saying that there is a “possibility” is absurd and unjustifiable? Of course the possibility exists. The majority of scientists believe we will see human caused warming for the foreseeable future accompanied by ocean levels rising, climates changing, and extinctions. I suppose there isn’t even a “possibility” that they might be correct.

  6. Joe,

    I prefer Ockham’s razor.

    Now, two questions.

    First, can you tell me what the average temperature of the earth’s surface has been over the last say 100 years. Now, can you tell me how much it has risen since George W Bush took over the White House? And can you tell me how we are going to stop global warming?

    Second, can you tell me why life dies? Can you tell me why the human body gives out at some point and stops? Aside from your obvious materialistic answer, can you give me one good reason why we age? Can you explain to me why there is violence, war, aggression, rape, murder, pornography, stealing, (and any other societal defect, IOW, crime)? Why, Joe, do we suddenly appear on earth, live for a while, then vanish forever? Aside from materialism, why exactly do we die? I can’t see any reason why, logically speaking, we shouldn’t live forever. There seems to me to be just as much probability that we should live for 1000 years as 100 years or 10 years or 1 year.

    Why do things continue to get worse when according to Darwinism things ought to be getting better?

    When you can sufficiently answer these two questions without relying on the assumed materialism or Philosophical Darwinism, then I will entertain the idea that my simple explanation of things is invalid.

    your friend,
    jerry

  7. Joe

    So life forms are made of material, but I can’t answer your question with references to materialism? Plants and animals evolved from a common ancestor, but I can’t refer to evolution to answer a question about why they die?

    Bias much?

  8. Joe,

    That’s what I thought too. (You can’t.)

    jerry

  9. Joe

    Can you explain why the sun shines without mentioning gravity? Tell me how to get stronger without bringing in that theory of exercise? Explain to me how birds fly without going on about that “wings” fantasy?

    That’s what I thought too. (You can’t.)

  10. Joe

    Oops I didn’t mean gravity there, I meant light. 😀

  11. Joe,

    I think you missed the point. The point is, or was, that you cannot account for life, or death for that matter, relying entirely on materialistic causes. So, your examples are rather absurd and beside the point. Even if I grant that you can explain mere human existance from materialistic and evolutionary processes, you cannot explain conscienceness, sentience, the very fact that we live and move and have being. You cannot explain morality based on mere materialism.

    Once again you have completely misrepresented what I said and what I believe. You continue to think I am opposed to scientific discovery or scientific explanations for natural phenomena. That is entirely untrue. What I am opposed to is your thinking, your philosophical Darwinism, that assumes we have no soul, that there is no metaphysical world, that we evolved from purely materialistic processes.

    Your Darwinism cannot explain why I am aware of myself, why I think, why I reason, why I live, why I die, or even where I came from. Your atheism gives you no starting point and no ending point and no means to explain why we are even having this conversation.

    PS–any answers to the amount of degrees the temp has risen over the last say 100 years? I know the answer. Do you?

    jerry

  12. PS–you can’t tell me why birds can fly either. You might be able to explain what wings do, but you cannot explain why wings are. Nor can you tell me how a bird knows how to use wings or what wings are or what wings do or how a bird even knew that it needed wings in the first place or how a bird knows to use wings for the act of flying. How did the bird know it needed hollow bones in order to fly? How did a Brachiosaur become a hummingbird?

    You might be able to talk about light and heat from purely materialistic point of view, no doubt they exist, but you cannot explain to me why light and heat and the sun are. Or how they came to be in such perfect balance for life to exist here on this planet without killing us all and, for the time being, no where else in the physical universe. How did the sun know these things Joe?

    Come to think of it, I don’t think you can even explain the sun’s shine materialistically since the rays of the sun are not only particles but waves. How do you explain the waves? How do you explain heat? How do you explain that light and heat travel and just happen to reach this planet, just enough, at just the right times?

    Joe, yours is a losing cause precisely because you leave out the soul. Tell me Joe: How do I know that I am? Where did my awareness come from? Where did the brain come from?

    And what does getting stronger have to do with anything? That’s a pretty poor example for your standards.

    jerry

  13. Joe

    “I think you missed the point. The point is, or was, that you cannot account for life, or death for that matter, relying entirely on materialistic causes. So, your examples are rather absurd and beside the point. Even if I grant that you can explain mere human existance from materialistic and evolutionary processes, you cannot explain conscienceness, sentience, the very fact that we live and move and have being. You cannot explain morality based on mere materialism.”
    Of course you can. We exist the way we are because all of our ancestors were better at staying alive and reproducing than there contemporaries. The vast majority of people live predominantly moral lives because it is better for them to get along with other people. It increases the likelihood of them successfully raising the next generation of people. This is not a problem for a purely materialistic world view.

    “Once again you have completely misrepresented what I said and what I believe.”
    No, I simply misunderstood. If you had the ability to give someone the benefit of the doubt you might have seen that. It is never my intent to misrepresent your position.

    “You continue to think I am opposed to scientific discovery or scientific explanations for natural phenomena. That is entirely untrue. What I am opposed to is your thinking, your philosophical Darwinism, that assumes we have no soul, that there is no metaphysical world, that we evolved from purely materialistic processes.”
    It doesn’t assume these things. There is no evidence to support the existence of souls or a “metaphysical” world. These thins\gs are only known to exists as thoughts in the minds of humans.

    “Your Darwinism cannot explain why I am aware of myself, why I think, why I reason, why I live, why I die, or even where I came from. Your atheism gives you no starting point and no ending point and no means to explain why we are even having this conversation.”
    We have a mental sense of self because that has helped our very social species survive. Just about everything else you mention follows from that.

    “PS–any answers to the amount of degrees the temp has risen over the last say 100 years? I know the answer. Do you?”
    I don’t know and it has no bearing on what I wrote in my comments.

    “you can’t tell me why birds can fly either.”
    I think you totally missed the point of that, but that may have been because I missed the point of your question.

    “Or how they came to be in such perfect balance for life to exist here on this planet without killing us all and, for the time being, no where else in the physical universe. How did the sun know these things Joe?”
    The sun knows nothing. If we couldn’t live here, we wouldn’t be here. It is called the anthropic principal.

    “Come to think of it, I don’t think you can even explain the sun’s shine materialistically since the rays of the sun are not only particles but waves. How do you explain the waves?”
    Electromagnetic waves are alternating electric and magnetic fields. They are energy like everything else. Just like matter and just like heat. All is energy. Really you demanding constant science lessons from me belies your supposed interest in the subject.

    “Joe, yours is a losing cause precisely because you leave out the soul. Tell me Joe: How do I know that I am? Where did my awareness come from? Where did the brain come from?”
    I don’t know that you are. All I know is that I see your words on this site and they don’t seem like they could come from a bot. The most reasonable solution is that you are a real person, but it may not be the case. I’m going with 90% on this one.

    “And what does getting stronger have to do with anything? That’s a pretty poor example for your standards.”
    Again, it was an analogous question to what I thought you were asking.

    Your questions about dinosaurs and birds show a lot of ignorance of how evolution works, which is why I am constantly encouraging you to educate yourself on the subject. That is, if those questions are really more than rhetorical devices.

    Barrage me with enough questions and then you can call me wrong for not answering them all, is that your strategy? If we could focus on a single issue, ever maybe I could help you understand the atheist perspective.

  14. Joe,

    I’m not going to argue this point any longer. Frankly, I don’t have the skills or your level of patience to say the same things over and over again to someone who either cannot read or is simply obstinate.

    Fact is, however, you haven’t answered a single question scientifically (and don’t say I don’t want to know because I do or I wouldn’t ask.) Not one question has been answer with ‘here’s the proof’. All you can say is, ‘here it is.’ You haven’t told me from whence it came, or more importantly, why it is.

    The problem with the materialist point of view is that you don’t want to see beyond yourself. You want to think, despite your claims to the contrary, that man is the measure of all things, that man can solve all problems, that man is all there is: Flesh, bones, blood. You are stuck in yourself because you have no where else to go.

    You keep accusing me of not understanding evolution and yet every time I draw Darwinism to it’s logical conclusions you have no logical answer one way or another. Please stop telling me that I don’t understand evolution. I am not ignorant of how it works that’s why I believe it is so patently absurd, mythological, fairy-talish, and ridiculous. I’m sorry Joe, but evolution is absolutely beyond absurd.

    Joe, I think you are a nice guy and I have enjoyed our conversations. But I simply cannot continue arguing with you. I barrage you with questions because I want you to see the necessary ends of your belief system–which are necessarily hopeless and meaningless. All you have to look forward to is death and even if it is only physical death that is bad enough. There is no point in arguing because I know what is true and I will not change my mind. I’ll say it again: Evolution is a lie perpetuated by the god of this age (satan) in order to blind the hearts and minds of the people of earth and turn them away from the truth.

    You wrote: “We have a mental sense of self because that has helped our very social species survive.” But you did not explain where that sense of self came from and that is how you answer every question because from your point of view, there is no answer. It all happened by chance, by Darwinism, etc. It is not an answer to simple say ‘it is’. That’s the difference between you and me. You believe more in ex nihilo than I do.

    So, thanks for the conversation. Perhaps I’ll see your around, but it is unlikely that I will be posting these long comments and dialogues. I started this blog with other intentions and, as you with me, I think I’m wasting my time with you.

    I do agree on this: If you could answer just one of my questions, with sound logic, scientific evidence (not anecdotal evidence), with something other than ‘you are stupid and don’t understand’ then maybe I would understand. Pick one subject. Let’s say, self-awareness. Tell me how I know that I am, tell me from a Darwinist point of view, tell me from an atheist point of view. I’ll read it.

    your friend,
    jerry

  15. Joe

    I have never once said you are stupid. Please do not put insults in my mouth.

    There are answers to most of your questions. I don’t have the time nor the inclination to reproduce them for you, when I have all reason to believe you will simply ignore them like you have the answers to the questions I did provide.

    “You haven’t told me from whence it came, or more importantly, why it is.”
    There is no why. There just is. The mistake is the assumption that anything that is has to have some kind of essential purpose. The atheistic world view does not contain that assumption.

    What is, is. We are just here trying to make sense of it.

  16. Joe,

    That is so profoundly sad. I know you don’t want my sympathy, but man, do I feel for you. Good luck.

    jerry

  17. Joe

    It really isn’t sad at all. I can stop posting on your blog if you wish. 😉

  18. Joe,

    You can post as much as you like, I simply will not argue any longer. You have made up your mind, and I am going to honor your wishes to remain lost.

    jerry




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