Friends,
**UPDATE** For more on the drivel coming from “Pastor” Young’s Challenge, see the New York Time’s Online edition: Pastor’s Advice for Better Marriage
There we read this gem:
It is not always easy to devote time for your spouse, Pastor Young admitted. Just three days into the sex challenge he said he was so tired after getting up before dawn to talk about the importance of having more sex in marriage that he crashed on the bed around 8 p.m. on Tuesday night.
Mrs. Young tried to shake him awake, telling her husband, “Come on, it’s the sex challenge.” But Mr. Young murmured, “Let’s just double up tomorrow,” and went back to sleep.
Aren’t you glad that you live in a culture where the pastor of a church feels comfortable sharing the intimate details of his sex life with the world! I know I am!!
___________________
It seems that, from time to time, a local church ‘pastor’ comes up with a ‘novel’ idea that is supposed to turn the world upside down and bring forth the next revival, the next wave of Holy Spirit renewal to the lost land of America. *Yawns* *Shakes head* It is terribly frustrating when the idea has nothing to do with the actual Gospel of Jesus. What one must do nowadays is preach stupidity like this: “God may have rested on the seventh day, but the Rev. Ed Young wants married couples to have sex all week long.” This is what ‘church’ is in some parts of the world. Frankly, it makes me sick.
So I have decided, in the interest of the Gospel, to write an open letter to ‘Rev’ Young. I realize that he is successful in ministry, and that I am not. I realize that he has a very large congregation, and I do not. I realize that I am a nobody, and that he is a somebody. That’s exactly why I am writing to him.
Dear Pastor Young,
The reason America is in such decline, morally, spiritually, etc., is because we are thinking too much about sex, not because we have somehow been deprived of it. We are deluged with it. We are being suffocated by it. Sex is everywhere. It’s hard sometimes to think about anything but sex. It’s in the cartoons. The movies. The magazines. The last thing we need in the pulpit is sex. It’s in the music. It’s on the internet. I can’t tell you the last time a woman was shown on television as a wholesome woman who loved her husband and family or a man who worked hard, took care of his family, and didn’t suffer the angst of unfulfillment because he didn’t have hot, younger woman to satisfy his sex-drive. I’m no Puritan, but please. Worship is not about sex. It is about God. Worship is not about anything but the Lamb who was slain from the foundations of the earth (Revelation 4-5).
I just saw, while I worked out this morning, on the Today Show, an interview with Tyra Banks about an upcoming show Ms Banks is doing. She will have young, teenaged girls who have, and I quote, ‘had multiple sex partners.’ One, 15, has had nine different sexual partners. I’m just thinking, and of course I admit that it is none of my business what you preach at your church, you might want to tackle a subject a little deeper than getting the married couples in your church to ‘do it’ God’s way or otherwise. Maybe what we need is a little abstinence and fasting? I don’t know, maybe, holiness, righteousness, sacrificial living, purity, marriage as an image of the relationship between Christ and His Church–you know, something that might actually benefit the hearer. Something that might actually exalt Christ instead of the flesh. Sex doesn’t make the Gospel attractive. Jesus does.
If you would like to do something really, really innovative try this: Preach the Gospel. Tell people what it means to ‘take up your cross and follow Jesus.’ Want to do something risky? Tell your congregation to abstain from sexual relations for seven days as a sign of repentance in preparation to meet the Lord in worship (See Exodus). Tell them to abstain for seven days so that they might pray and fast. (See 1 Corinthians 7:5) Want to get really, really crazy? Stand up on Sunday morning, or whatever day you preach, and open your Bible and tell the people that marriage is more about perfecting holiness and grace than it is about perfecting sex or tell them that even marriage is more of a sign pointing in the direction of the Messiah and his relationship to the Church. (See Ephesians 5)
Yes, yes. Sex is, uh, important in the marriage. Yes, yes. Married people should do it. But isn’t there far more to even sex than merely satisfying the flesh? Is this all your training taught you? As a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, don’t you think that you ought to take that calling a little more seriously? I’m sorry, I’m being far too general in my comments. Of course you are preaching the gospel.
I read this in the article:
Jim Dale of Coppell said he figures the pastor is trying to create more buzz for his five-church mega-ministry.“Draw ’em in, no matter what or how,” wrote the Coppell resident in a posting on dallasnews.com. “Sex? You betcha. That’ll pack the pews (or theater seats).”
Mr. Dale, author of a book about individual relationships with God, said he has attended Fellowship Church a few times. And he offered some praise: “I’ve got to hand it to them, they are brilliant marketers.”
Then I read that you wrote at your blog, that God has a ‘pure desire for sex in marriage.’ Sir, can I ask you a real, not-in-any-way-sarcastic question? What the hell does that mean? Where in the Bible have you read about God’s ‘pure desire for sex in the marriage’ other than that we should ‘keep the marriage bed pure’ (Hebrews 13:40) and that it should be between a married man and woman (Genesis 2:23-24)? Do you really think that is what the Bible has been preserved for? Do you really think that is what God had on his mind when he told the prophets to speak ‘thus sayeth the Lord’? Do you really think that is what the martyrs were concerned with as they were burned alive? Do you really think that this is what Jesus had in mind when he suffered for our sins? Surely God’s great plan was for our sexual perfection.
Then I read: “The most exciting part of this right now is the potential that this challenge has to help heal and strengthen so many marriages and families.” So, what you are saying is that if me and my wife have sex for 7 straight days all of our problems, or even some of them, will heal; that my entire family will be strengthened? Shall I share this news with my sons? I’m not being snarky, I just want my entire family to get the most out of this that they can. Do you really think this is a matter we should pray over? Should we share this revelation with the Christians in the Middle East or in Asia or in Africa who are persecuted because of the Gospel? Have you really been able to discern, from Scripture, that God Almighty, the Holy One of Israel, the One who spared not His own Son but gave Him up for us all…have you really been able to discern that that God has a specific way that we should ‘do it’? Is that really in the Bible? Truly it must be divine, and I’m so glad that after 2,000 years of Gospel, Reformation, martyrdom, etc., that you have finally discerned the truth about God’s way of doing it. Thank you.
With all the, excuse me, shit going on in the world, do you really think that American Christians need to make this a matter of prayer?
Are you actually bragging, in your blog post, that the idea for this ‘challenge’ came from a woman in your church who got the idea from a ‘magazine article’? Did you really need a woman to say this in order to justify it to your congregation? Are magazines now really where we begin when preaching the Will of God? Seriously?
Well, that’s about all I have for you. I don’t imagine you will read this letter, and that’s OK. You have important things to do in your ministry and, in your bedroom. I will say this, I feel badly for your children. I’m sorry that you have decided to ‘practice what you preach’ in this instance and to make it public for the rest of us. I’m sorry your children have to be exposed to this sort of nonsense. I hope they are not to embarrassed about the private matter you and your wife have decided the rest of us need to be aware of. I’m sorry that in your effort to do something that will market your product, you have actually defiled the marriage bed instead of keeping it pure.
PS–Can you show me that verse in Scripture where we are told how to do it ‘God’s way’?
PPS–My wife, after hearing about this ‘challenge’ said, and I quote, “I think it is disgusting that a preacher would suggest this. How many times I ‘do it’ or ‘don’t do it’ with my husband is my own business. I don’t need a preacher giving me suggestions or challenges about my sex life. I don’t need a preacher telling me how many times to have sex with my husband or encouraging me either.”
PPPS–Said my son, whom my wife and I have decided to keep in the loop so that our ‘entire family will be strengthened’ through this challenge, added to my wife’s comment, ‘But what if your husband is a preacher?’
The ‘gospel’ at work my friends, at work!
HT: SOL
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Life Under the Blue Sky: The View From Below 
Seriously, dude? You have put way tooooooooo much energy into this. All he is promoting is that MARRIED COUPLES should have s-e-x. Im pretty sure they already do that. And i.m also SURE that God (Big G) is not offended by a pastor that talks about sex. He did create it, after all. You really need to lighten up.
I believe Pastor Young has the right message. God gave us the right to have sex with our spouses and to praise Him for it. You can praise God in all you do that’s good. Sex needs to be taken back by married couples and released from the hands of those who sin with the process.
Allon,
Thank you for your concern about how I spend my time. I don’t recall anywhere suggesting that sex is bad, or that married couples should not practice it. I think in your zeal to miss the point of my post you missed the point of my post.
Sharon,
You might believe ‘Pastor’ Young has the right message, and of course you would be wrong. I nowhere suggested that sex is bad or that it should be avoided. However, I am quick to add that nowhere in Scripture does God command his disciples to ‘take back sex from the hands of those who sin in the process.’ I think you are reading a different Bible than I am if that’s the message you get from it. You, like Allon, have thoroughly missed the point.
Thanks to both of you for stopping by and commenting. I appreciate it very much.
jerry
You are right on here in your letter!! The problem with Ed Young’s message is that the focus is on sex and not on Christ. You can have all the sex you want but until you center your marriage on Christ, it isn’t going anywhere. And some people have come to believe that sex is a form of worship. In one newspaper article that talks about this challenge, a United Methodist counselor is even quoted as saying, in support of the challenge, “Sexuality is related to spirituality, so I think it can be spiritual growth as well”.
In otherwords, this counselor believes that by having sex you can become a more spiritual person. ANd on Ed Young’s blog, a young woman commented his blog, saying that “sex is the highest form of worship.” This is the same teaching as the Da Vinci code. The focus is on sex and sex as a form of worship to God, rather than having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. ANd according to Paul, sex is not the highest form of worship.celibacy is.
1 Corinthians 7:1-7
I applaud you for standing up for Christ. Keep up the good work!!! Here’s some information you may find helpful for the future:
[Link Deleted; I don’t permit links.–jerry]
Love in Christ
Sandy
I have read and reread the Bible several times over my 59 years and all of this leaves me speechless. Sex sells, as Jerry mentioned, and this man, who passes himself off as a “Pastor” is a great marketer but a lousy person to save souls. He encourages 5th graders on up to attend these sermons. If it is all about bringing sex back into a marriage how many 5th graders are married? Sex is not making love, sex was created by God simply as procreation..!! Holding hands, notes tucked away in little places, a smile, a hug, or just sitting together in the same room and not having to say a word to each other, sometimes silence is the best way to show someone how much you love them. Those are the things that make a person a better man, woman, child and child of God. Cathy
Cathy,
Thanks for the reply. I’m sure much of this leaves you speechless. However, you and I are not in complete agreement. Sex is NOT ‘simply’ procreation. On this I think you are seriously, seriously misguided and wrong. I think you are right about silence and all that, but as a married man with three children of my own, I can safely say that sex is about far more than simple pro-creation. I just don’t want a preacher telling me or encouraging me or challenging me in such a way. And as a preacher, I won’t stand up on Sunday mornings and tell all the 59+/- year-olds all about it or offer them challenges. That to me smells of something akin to an abuse of authority.
jerry
Sandy,
I’m not certain where you read in Scripture that celibacy is the ‘highest form of worship,’ but I don’t think I agree with you in any way. It might be true for someone who is celibate, but it is not true for everyone. On the contrary, Revelation 4-5 speaks highly of singing as worship, Hebrews speaks of the sacrifice of praise, Jesus of taking up your cross and following Him, Paul in Romans said that our spiritual act of worship is to give our lives as ‘living sacrifices.’ You may well have part of the point, and I’m not even denying that sex as such between two married Christians can be AN act of worship, but it’s not a mountain I am willing to die upon at all.
Thanks for stopping by.
jerry
Jerry,
The link I sent you was important as it is a letter from John Newton (the writer of Amazing Grace) on dealing with controversy. It will help you to respond in love. You can win more souls that way and if you are going to challenge the doctrine of today, then you’ll need that information in order to do it RIGHT. Otherwise, you just look negative and ARGUMENTATIVE. And so far, argumentative is exactly how you look since you are arguing with even the people who complimented your letter???????
For the matters on celibacy: 1 corinthians 7:2 It is good for a man not to marry.2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. And in order for us to understand how God views sex you can read the rest of that chapter. Paul has been called the greatest Christian who ever lived. He didn’t get that title by singing. He got it from living a holy life before God, his celibacy that is. THere were others who lived lives just as holy as Paul, but Paul was the only one who practiced celibacy. It IS the highest form of worship. ANd I agree, not everyone can do that. In fact, I don’t know anyone who can…but PRAISE GOD He gave us sex to enjoy in the context of marriage.
Love in Christ
Sandy
Sandy,
I think you misunderstood me. I saved the link, I just don’t leave them in comments for others. I got well the point of the link, but I don’t think it was necessary as I harbor no personal animosity towards Rev Young and, to be sure, I am speaking in love and ‘in the interest of the Gospel.’ I am addressing him as a fellow preacher of the Gospel of Jesus, not as a mere critic who has nothing better to do, as I would hope people would do for me–which I why I post my sermon manuscripts here.
As to celibacy, eh, whatever. I don’t happen to agree with your application of that passage at all. We do not have sex or practice celibacy in order to attain a title–least of all the title of ‘greatest of all Christians who ever lived.’ Jesus said the greatest among us is the one who serves, not the one who is celibate. I don’t know who you think referred to Paul as the ‘greatest Christian who ever lived,’ since Paul referred to himself as the ‘greatest of all sinners.’ I think you crossed your wires somewhere.
Thanks for stopping by again.
jerry
You make an interesting point.
You are probably right that there are no scriptures that explicitly support the issuance of a seven day challenge like this.
First off, from what I remember of the Bible, the purpose for marriage is sex. I’m pretty sure Paul says it somewhere, like in a letter to the Corinthians, that the only reason to get married is because you literally can’t keep your hands off the other person. He goes on to say that if you can keep your hands off the person, then don’t get married! It keeps you free to do God’s work.
I know that there are quite a few similarities between marriage and Christ and the Church. However, I don’t think that marriage was designed to make us understand these things.
I think that you may have it backwards. Christ’s relationship with his Church shows us how our relationship in marriage should be, not that our human marriage gives us insight into how Christ works with his church. We are a reflection, but not a microscope.
That being said, I understand how it might seem strange to preach something not explicitly gospel. While the gospel is important, Church (and pastorship) is designed for those who have received the good news. Worship services are for a community of believers to come together and adore all that they love about their Creator, the unrepentant or unsaved wouldn’t get it or necessarily be drawn in. Same thing goes with the teaching that occurs. It’s for the body of Christ, so that they’re lives may be fulfilled.
Reminding couples that they need to have sex is not a bad thing. It isn’t a waste of time. Sex is a awkward subject for many people, and sometimes that’s because of their religious background. I believe that it is absolutely God’s will that Ed Young reminds people that they are to blessedly enjoy the body of their spouse as a gift of God. There is no shame in it!
You may not have needed to hear this, but there are some people that did. People that have been told their whole lives that “sex is bad” and then have communication issues when they become married.
It is of course possible for Young to preach every week on the saving power of Christ, and to have an altar call at the end of each sermon. But then, where do these new believers go? Perhaps Young is not evangelizing, because he’s not strictly an evangelist. He’s preaching, teaching, and equipping his flock to evangelize. The scriptural mandate for a preacher.
Also, just some quick issues:
That quote you have at the very beginning of the blog might be slightly misleading. Until I read the article link, I thought it was Ed Young speaking in third person. I didn’t know that it was a local newspaper describing what Young was doing. He doesn’t say that God may have rested but he wants you to get wild.
Furthermore, who on earth is this Jim Dale fellow? I have tried finding him on the internet but without success. That doesn’t mean that he’s a nobody, or a viewpoint without credence; because there’s also a Jim Dale that seems to have narrated the Harry Potter books. I wasn’t going to try too incredibly hard to find the Jim Dale I was looking for after I read that little tidbit.
Dance,
You might disagree, but that is not what Scripture says. Re-read Ephesians 5. Marriage is not for the purpose of sex. You are reading way too much into Corinthians: “Yes, let’s get married just so we can have sex and be free of guilt.” Yeah, that’s good theology.
Furthermore, and I guess I didn’t make this clear. This issue here is not about sex. Really. The issue here is about how he uses his pulpit. He is not teaching, equipping, or anything of the sort. What sort of evangelism do you suppose his congregants will engage in after hearing his ‘teaching’? You seem to think I am some sort of a Puritan who is opposed to sexual relationships in marriage. Well you are wrong. I just don’t think the pulpit is the place for that conversation to take place. Period.
Marriage is about holiness and grace and only distantly about a sexual relationship. Sex is vital, fun, important, and a blessing. And it is one thing to say to your congregation, God gave us sex and expects that we will enjoy it in the confines of a husband and wife (man and woman) relationship. It is something else entirely to say, “OK, here’s a challenge.” He abused his authority in the pulpit and disrespected the Word of God. His idea is just plain stupid.
Thanks for stopping by.
jerry
Thanks for the quick response Jerry, much appreciated.
I think that Ephesians 5 further supports the idea that marriage mirrors the relationship Christ has with his Church. It details how we should conduct ourselves in marriage, by providing parallels as to how Christ treats the church.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians does provide us guilt-free sex. God created sex, he obviously created a way for us to enjoy it guilt free.
Sex is an intrinsic, inseparable, and fundamental part of the Christian marriage. I can not see how it is a distant second in any way.
Also, I would assume that his followers would evangelize in a way that includes all of his sermons and teachings, not one sermon designed for married couples. The same goes for anything that is ever spoken about in church. I wouldn’t assume that that members now have a sex focused approach to evangelism.
I don’t think you are a puritan that thinks sex is dirty. Far from it, but I do think that this particular issue is all that heretical.
So you waste your time chastising another. What does your open letter accomplish? I find it amusing that you waste time imposing your ideology on another when you could spend that time preaching the actual Gospel of Jesus.
I love it. The church is doomed. Don’t blame it on ME. You have destroyed yourselves. HA HA
Dawn Bailey
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Before you raise an eyebrow about this challenge…check out this past weekend’s message at [Link Removed–jerry] to see what God says about sex and marriage in scripture.
Why do we continue to allow the media to dictate sexual norms? As a mother of 3 teenage boys, I am deeply troubled by the volume of casual sex bombarding our kids. Sexual intercourse carries with it deep emotional, physical, and spiritual ramifications that if taken out of the marriage bed can do significant harm. No one bats an eyelash at the porn star reality show, yet we are quick to criticize this open discussion in church. Have you checked the stats on pornography, infidelity, and divorce?? The enemy is having a field day!
It is time that sex is taken back from our culture and returned to the place where it all began—one man and one woman in marriage, God’s way. ^i^
Dear Mr Lucifer,
Thank you for stopping by. I’m glad, what with all your other ‘jobs’ to do in the world, you found my blog worthy of your wickedness.
BTW–we are commanded in Scripture to be accountable to one another which is why we do so.
BTW–you are right. We don’t need your help destroying one another. That is precisely the point. When preachers preach this sort of stuff from the pulpit, instead of Jesus, we do in fact destroy each other. It is ‘Rev’ Young who is imposing an ‘ideology’ upon people and not preaching the Gospel–in case you didn’t actually read my post–and thus helping to render the church ineffective. If he would preach the Gospel, well, you and I wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?
jerry
Dawn,
I appreciate your point of view, but I have a couple of observations for you.
You have too many straw men in your argument. First of all, no one here is not batting an eye at what you call ‘porn star reality.’ (I personally didn’t even know such a thing existed since all I ever seem to watch on television with my own three sons is Spongebob Squarepants, Pittsburgh Steelers football, and the occasional NASCAR race.) ‘Reality porn stars’ having nothing to do with anything because you still have the power to turn off the television. It seems to me that if your ‘pastor’ taught you about holiness or about a Holy God who expects you to be holy, then sex wouldn’t be a problem for you or anyone to the point that he needs to preach about it.
Second, who said the ‘media’ dictate sexual norms? But anyhow, what do you expect? The media is not the church or Jesus Christ. What do you expect the unregenerate to portray sex as? Furthermore, if you don’t like what the ‘media’ is saying or showing, well–TURN IT OFF!
Third, I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a discussion in the church. But have you ever heard of small groups? Women’s groups? Teen groups? Have you ever heard…hold on because this might shock you…of Parents? This is a discussion parents ought to have with their children. It’s called the ‘birds and the bees’ or ‘the talk.’ It’s not terribly complicated. We seem to have no problem telling our kids not to do drugs, perhaps we should have the same courage when it comes to sex.
My criticism is not that a discussion of sex is taking place in the church, although for the life of me I can’t figure out why married people need a preacher to tell them to have sex or how having sex for seven straight days is going to stop ‘reality porn stars’ from influencing our children, my criticism is that it is being preached from the pulpit where we are supposed to preach the Word of God. My criticism is that ‘Rev’ Young is abusing his position in the pulpit.
Fourth, with all due respect, if you have three teenaged sons, it doesn’t sound to me like you need a preacher to tell you to have sex with your husband. It sounds like you figured it out quite nicely on your own.
Thanks for stopping by.
jerry
AMEN! I love this open letter response. I only hope Rev. Young has read this.
I just saw this whole story on Good Morning America and have been on the GMA website reading for over an hour, I have never before been a “chat” person, but this story upset me enough to post a response and thus “google” and find your letter. I fully agree with you and all you have said.
I wish you a wonderful day.
p.s. Among other things, I wrote “Did he also discuss contraception with the fellowship? and is he willing to help support all the babies whom might be born next year????
Diane,
Glad I could be of encouragement to you today. So far, the response to my post has been largely negative. That’s OK. I have no illusions that the good rev read this letter. But a lot of others have this week and that’s cool.
Thanks for stopping by.
jerry
Dear Jerry, I appreciate your letter and your thoughts. I think your opening remarks are 100% correct. We are bombarded by sex every day and its usually not in line with God’s definition of marriage and sex, which is why I think a sermon like this is appropriate. The church has the duty to teach and lead its congregation, and it should not stop at sex or marriage or finances or anything else. While there are not specific instructions in the Bible for every decision we face, we can find biblical principles to apply to every aspect of our lives.
My prayer is what Pastor Young, and every preacher, says from their pulpit are only words inspired by God. I pray God uses my preacher’s voice box to speak to me. And I think it is out of bounds for us to make judgement calls on what is from God and what is not. There are lots of preachers and minitries that I tend to think are misguided, but I keep that to myself. I know God works in mysterious ways and for us to put God in a box and say He does not want sex mentioned from the pulpit would be a huge mistake, and in my opinion, probably sinful.
Your letter is dated prior to the sermons being preached, and I think to jump on Pastor Young before you listened to the sermons was premature. Its probably also a mistake to take this one series and make a judgement on Pastor Young’s teachings, his church, his congregation, and everything else you made judgments on.
I am not trying to defend Ed Young, but I do want you and others to know this kind of public rhetoric is dangerous and it does not serve God or bring souls to Him.
I think your letter is worth debate and should have been sent directly to Ed Young. There are many valid issues that pastors should talk about amongst themselves, and to keep eachother accountable. An open letter is probably not the best format for a critique such as this. I am sure he would respond to you and it would be a good discussion.
Others have said your letter appears angry, and I definitely agree. I know you disagree with me on that, but your tone is harsh and your use of curse words do not help your case.
Thanks for your time.
ML,
Thanks for stopping by. I don’t have time to respond tit-for-tat, but of course you already know that I disagree with most of what you have written. To be sure, I’m purposely didn’t focus on the sermons. I am disgusted by a preacher issuing such a ‘challenge.’ His ‘challenge’ and his misuse of the pulpit to promote it are, in your own words ‘out of bounds.’ Preachers should be held accountable at every turn which is exactly why this is the proper format to address such an issue.
Finally, like I told another blogger, there is no anger in my tone and you are quite incorrect to read anger. Check the pinged link below to read my comments to someone who found anger in my post. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
jerry
Thanks Jerry for your reply, and I too have been disgusted by things I have seen pastors do and say. However, I still do not believe it is my place, nor yours, to make judgements on what is God’s will. There are no scriptures that say preaching about sex is wrong. If there were, then I would be on board with you. And I do not find anything in scripture that indicates in any way that a sex challenge is wrong. This is all merely your personal opinion and is not backed up by scripture, and its not right to frame it any other way. I hear you saying you are not angry, but its not what I and others sense from your writings. We have nothing to gain from saying you sound angry, and I think its worth your time to think about it. Its very ironic for you to be saying what preachers should or should not be saying, while at the same time you say, shit and hell. Never heard a preacher use that kind of language, but like I said earlier, its not the first time a preacher has said something that disgusts me. Thanks
ML,
Two points.
First, I suspect if you have never heard a preacher say ‘shit’ or ‘hell’ then you have not spent enough time reading your Bible. There is nothing inherently vulgar about describing what goes on in this world as shit. It is what it is. You might describe this world as being full of garbage or fouled up or messed up. I describe it as full of shit in the most literal and metaphorical way imaginable. Therefore, it is only your sense of the rightness and wrongness of language here that is called into question, not my particular use of a word. (See also Philippians where the apostle fondly recalled his former life in Judaism as ‘dung’ or, in our vernacular, ‘shit.’)
Second, this is a blog, not a pulpit. You may find it ironic the way I call attention to the various stupidities of this world and the words I use to describe those stupidities, but again: This is not a pulpit. It’s a blog. One would have to be rather dense not to be able to make that distinction. So you can come off your moral high horse, back down to earth now.
You strike me as someone who has not spent any significant time reading Scripture at all because you ‘don’t see where the challenge is wrong.’ Neither do I for that matter. Still there is that nagging passage where the apostle Paul said that he preaches Christ and him crucified. And that other curious part where Jesus says discipleship is about taking up a cross, denying the self, and following him. I would be curious to know, since you seem well enough educated to defend the stupidity of a 7 day sex challenge, where in Scripture you find justification for it. I’ll grant there is no condemnation of it. Where is the justification for it?
I’m glad we are having this conversation because all of those who have stopped by to defend ‘Rev’ Young have yet to convince me that this has anything to do with biblical Christianity whatsoever. If I were Rev Young, I would be very concerned about those who are defending me and the logic they are using to do so.
jerry
“If I were Rev Young, I would be very concerned about those who are defending me and the logic they are using to do so.”
Well, you mentioned that there’s no explicit condemnation of a seven day sex challenge. Why are you so comfortable in your condemnation of it?
Is it perhaps that not everything that is good doctrine or worthy of teaching is explicitly mentioned in scripture?
You’ve ignored that sex is indeed an intrinsic and important part of sex. It’s not some lesser ingredient, and scripture makes this explicitly clear. You appear to be reading into the text to support your viewpoints.
I’ll admit, that we’re all guilty of that at one time or another, but you seem to be taking it to an extreme in this case.
Furthermore, if Christians are so confronted by evil, shouldn’t a teacher remind them to partake of goodness? When sin corrupts our behaviors, aren’t preachers and teachers there to point out the correct actions?
I have a feeling that if this was about some other issues besides sex, there wouldn’t be such a big hoopla.
DTS,
You wrote:
“You’ve ignored that sex is indeed an intrinsic and important part of sex. It’s not some lesser ingredient, and scripture makes this explicitly clear. You appear to be reading into the text to support your viewpoints.”
Your first sentence makes no sense whatsoever. Of course sex is an important part of sex. You are missing the forest here through all the trees. Read what my complaint is. I’m not complaining about sex. I’ve never argued that sex is bad, said we should avoid it, or argued that Scripture has nothing to say about it, nor even that preachers shouldn’t talk about it–In an appropriate setting. That appropriate setting is not the pulpit and his ‘challenge’ is not preaching.
Finally, I’m not reading the Scripture to support my viewpoint although I would argue that Scripture does indeed support my viewpoint. Nevertheless, I’m reading the Scripture to support an orthodox Gospel of which this stupid challenge and sermon series is not a part of.
I’ll say it again: If you need a preacher to inspire you to have sex with your spouse, then your sex life must be rather dull.
jerry
Ah, that wouldn’t make any sense. It should have said the second “sex” should instead be “marriage.”
“If you need a preacher to inspire you to have sex with your spouse, then your sex life must be rather dull.”
Yes, it would be rather dull. I’d imagine that someone would feel unfulfilled and a little distant from their spouse. However, I don’t think that it is so crazy to remind couples that sex is an important part of their marriage. It’s easy to forget, and starts to be considered a luxury instead of a requirement. Other things that are much more stressful take the lead in consumption of time and energy, and physical intimacy gets left out in the cold.
Which part of the sermon, specifically, when you heard it outraged you so? It seems to me to be a good and decent way for a pastor to remind people that sex is important in their marriage, and that the Bible commands them to not stop doing it. Excepting a few very specific reasons. Church members that aren’t married yet also hear the sermon, and reminded that when they are married that sex is an important part of that marriage, so important that they are only to withold themselves from it for a time to fast and get closer to God. Hopefully they don’t start thinking of it as non-essential, or secondary. Hopefully it will cause the younger people and couples to avoid the pitfalls that sometimes come with the stresses of marriage (and probably family) life.
That being said, not every sermon is for every single member of the congregation. Not at any church, including this one. I’m sure that some people didn’t need to hear it, but I’m sure that some did.
If a church is not the correct place for people to learn what the Bible tells them about sex, then where is?
If scripture does support your argument that Ed Young should not have said that couples should try to have sex every night for seven days, please point it out. To be clear, I’m not asking for it to mention Ed Young specifically, or a divinely inspired moratorium on sermons of that type.
Young isn’t telling people to get their rocks off, he’s reminding people that marriage requires both physical and emotional intimacy, and that’s in the Bible. He’s not commanding them, he’s telling them to try.
And realistically, sometimes in life, it takes hearing your preacher say “Maybe should try and make more time for doing it…” to get you to realize that you’ve let all the petty and trivial matters of daily life get in the way.
DTS,
You are not a preacher are you? If you are not, then your acceptance of such drivel from the pulpit is understandable. If you are, then you don’t take your calling very seriously.
Finally, you are not going to bait me into a confession of anger by changing the word from ‘anger’ to ‘outrage.’ You might have yourself convinced that I am angry at ‘Pastor’ Young, but I’m not.
jerry
My occupation and calling realistically have nothing to do with the points I’ve mentioned. Saying that I would be a poor minister if I accept this drivel first requires proof that the challenge is indeed drivel. The same goes for saying that I am a poor member of the congregation. My personal occupation and calling can neither enhance nor detract from my statements.
I’m sorry that I used the term “outrage.” You really do seem to be angry and upset about this, as many people have pointed out. You continue to claim that you are not, so I was wrong to call it outrage. But please, try to take a look at the way you are saying things, if it causes many people to think you are incredibly angry.
That being said, I’d like to know what you disagree with in my previous comment.
Where should Christians learn about sex?
Does the bible not make it clear that sex is an intrinsic part of marriage that should never be discontinued except for a few incredibly specific reasons?
Is it not the role of a pastor to teach his congregation what the bible says about their lives, and encourage them to practice it?
Isn’t it common for many married couples to experience a time in their lives where they simply ignore sex because of the pressures of keeping their lives together?
All these things, on top of the fact that Young’s sermon was focused on the intimacy of sex and not the lust, seem to me to be a good reason for a sermon on the subject.
I see that you are getting the typical negative feedback. Well, I just want to step in and thank you for an insightful, thought-provoking BIBLICAL response. It is really sad that this is the ONE thing about this church that made the news. Perhaps some of you who have a problem with this response should read the comments following the NY Times article. Christians are, once again, being made a laughing stock. It’s embarrassing.
Yeah, we need more Christians like this blogger who can actually rightly divide the word of Truth and speak out against unsound doctrine and continues to rise up in the church.
When I read the NY Times article, I was beyond offended. And I think you have made some very noteworthy points.
1) We do not need to create “buzz” in the Church. The Gospel can “sell” itself.
2) The pastor’s laughable and flippant “advice” to singles that they should “eat chocolate cake”, is insulting and condescending and does nothing to foster an atmosphere of sexual purity.
3) Did anyone stumble in repulsion over the part in the article where a woman, whose husband cheated on her 8 months into her marriage, is being encouraged to have more sex? I mean, she could very well be married to a sex addict, but instead she is being counseled to continue submitting herself to the spiritual abuse this man has obviously brought into her home.
It’s no wonder many are falling away.
DTS,
Distinguishing between ‘intimacy’ and ‘lust’ has nothing to do with whether or not this is a good idea or a bad idea. The idea is stupid regardless of his motivation. And I noticed this gem: “How to move from whining about the economy to whoopee!” Doesn’t sound to me like he is interested in the least about Christ, the Church, or Scripture. Sounds to me like he is interested in distraction.
You asked, “Where should Christians learn about sex?” [Well, just off the top of my head I would say…in the bedroom. Or, if they were trained well, from their parents. I would not say ‘from the pulpit.’]
You asked, “Is it not the role of the pastor to teach the congregation what the Bible says about their lives and encourage them to practice it?” [This is why I asked if you are a pulpit preacher. The answer is NO. This is not the role of the pastor. The role of the pastor is to shepherd his flock. The role of a preacher is to preach Christ and Him Crucified. When the preacher has taught from Scripture the nature of Holiness, righteousness, etc., then he won’t need to teach them about their lives or be concerned about their sex lives.]
You asked, “Isn’t it common for many married couples to experience a time in their lives where they simply ignore sex because of the pressures of keeping their lives together?” [So what? What does this have to do with the pulpit or the preacher or the Word of God? Is he supposed to come to their house and give them lessons or keep a spreadsheet on who is and is not doing it so that he will know when it is time to preach sermons about it again? So people in his church will be so bored after a week or two of sex that they won’t have it for a month. It’s called diminishing returns. That’s healthy.]
Now, I shall ask you a question. Why are you so angry that I have this particular point of view? What about my point of view so outrages you? Many of us reading your comments are convinced that you are getting angrier with each reply you post. What about my words has caused such anger to well up inside of you? Why won’t you use your real name?
jerry
Costenya,
Thanks for stopping by. I read the NYT’s article and you are right. This whole challenge is ridiculous and making Christians appear foolish for reasons that do not involve the cross of Christ.
jerry
I’ve not developed a position on the wrongness or rightness of this particular message coming from the pulpit to a mixed congregation. I see both its merits and dangers.
I think my question, as a pastor, to you is what are the ‘constraints’ on a pastor as to what messages and directives he may issue from the pulpit [in your view]? While the obvious answer will be to ‘preach the gospel of Jesus Christ’, my question goes to how do you qualify what thought are Gospel and which are not.
Paul’s writings are sermonic fodder for many of us and much of his writings touch on the daily issues of life such as the quality and frequency of sex in marriage.
The question: What are the ‘constraints’ on a pastor as to what messages and directives he may issue from the pulpit [in your view]?
Pure,
Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your question and I think it is a valid question.
The problem with your question is I don’t think you are genuinely asking a theological or homiletical question. Paul says nothing about the ‘frequency and quality of sex in a marriage.’ Paul talks about holiness within a covenant relationship. It seems to me that most of the conversation that takes place in Scripture has to do with how people manage to pervert sex because they are not at all sold to Christ, but to idols–And that to his Covenant people!
I will say, however, that I think the moral authority of the pulpit has been eroded by just such preaching. Rather than preach what sort of sex and techniques are permitted, we are to preach holiness. For example, if a preacher stood up and preached that marriage is a picture of the relationship between Christ and His Church (Ephesians 5) then I think it would give us an idea of what sex in a marriage looks like. Thus mature people will not even have to ask such an insipid question about ‘frequency and quality’ of sex in a marriage.
This is not, then, a matter of what is and is not permitted. It is a matter of the purpose of the pulpit which is not, however we may want to word this, to teach people ‘how to live.’ The purpose of the pulpit, and the authority of the one who stands there, is Christ. I posted and 18 minute podcast on my front page (“Jesus and Sex”) where I delve into this a little. What would you say to the man who is married to a woman who is paralyzed and cannot have sex? Is their marriage any less qualitative because they cannot engage in intimacy? I think not. The point is that sex, however right and fun it may be, is not the final or ultimate determiner of the quality of a marriage. Good and frequent sex is a by-product of a marriage that is firmly grounded in holiness and grace of Christ.
jerry
Thank you for your response. I will not argue any of your points. I will say that my reference to frequency and quality are pursuant to I Co. 7:3-5.
I’m glad you explained your perspective of the purpose of the pulpit. It gives more light to your post and ‘your thinking’ of what a sermon’s purpose must be and how that purpose is achieved.
Sorry that I have been absent for awhile. Thanksgiving is a busy time for me. If you celebrate it, I hope you had an enjoyable one.
I didn’t realize I sounded so angry. Thanks for pointing that out. It is difficult to disagree with someone on the internet without sounding angry, and sometimes you need to be reminding that you’re being offensive. I’m not angry, rest assured. I am a concerned at times, and saddened, but not angry in any way that I can recall. If I was and it was unjustified, my apologies.
There’s a few reasons why I don’t use my real name on the internet:
1) It’s the internet. There’s no social pressure, prevelant more, or code of conduct that traditionally calls for “RL” names. As such, I’ve never felt a need to provide it, as coming up with a handle is ever more descriptive and informative.
2) It’s the internet. I’ve had to deal with a few people over the years had problems from releasing to much personal data on the net. It’s just a bad idea, if there is no need for it.
3) I’m one of the Jonas brothers. (kidding)
Back to the topic on hand though….
I begin to see that you and I disagree on some issues that can’t (and really don’t need to) be agreed upon just through conversation.
I agree with thepurebed that 1 Cor speaks on frequency, and it’s requirement. I think that Ephesians 4:11-12 (and maybe a few more verses after that) make it a pastor’s responsibility to teach his congregation about the word of God, the doctrine contained in it, and how to use that doctrine to grow and be spiritually mature.
Teaching only the saving message of Christ is certainly important, but the church (by definition) is for people that have already heard and accepted that message. If there is any room in a gathering of believers for teaching, it seems like it must contain more then the saving message of Christ.
I might be confused though, because I know that people often use the phrase “teach the gospel” to mean teaching Christianity as a whole, not limited to the saving act of Jesus Christ.
However, I will say, that if you feel this is what your particular branch of the church needs to focus on, then I see no reason to say you shouldn’t. Especially if you’re growing in spiritual maturity.
Bottom line, I think that this was well within the realm of a minister to preach on, wasn’t really all that radical, and simply became a temporary media darling.
There are always people that will laugh at Christianity. In many corners of the internet Christians are viewed as hatemongers, caring only for banning gay marriage and overturning abortion. This honestly changed some peoples opinions on what a great deal of Christianity can be about, and may have simply cemented some other opinions.
We disagree, on the issue of whether or not it is acceptable for a minister to preach on this issue, and I don’t think that will be resolved.
But I’ve enjoyed hearing why you think the things you do.
-Nick Jonas
DTS,
“I agree with thepurebed that 1 Cor speaks on frequency, and it’s requirement. I think that Ephesians 4:11-12 (and maybe a few more verses after that) make it a pastor’s responsibility to teach his congregation about the word of God, the doctrine contained in it, and how to use that doctrine to grow and be spiritually mature.”
So, you are saying that one verse in one chapter in one book to one church makes it a necessity that this topic be preached from a pulpit? Well, at least you know where there is a preacher who agrees with you. I’m sure that his teaching on the matter will save countless people. Good luck.
jerry
I understand that you are not “mad” at Rev. Ed Young. I realize that you have no problem with sex. I also see that you respond with sarcasm and chastise to any opinion in opposition to your own, so I’m ready for it.
I only have a few simple questions, and I truly do appreciate your opinion. You have a problem with the challenge, I do not. Neither of us are going to change are views, as seen in previous posts, so that will not be the basis or reason for my post.
You obviously have not done your research regarding the challenge, or, as you say, the “stupid sermon series” it was a part of. Rev. Young wanted married couples to move from “little sex” (lust, adultery) to “big sex” (commitment, strengthening of relationships), or in other words, the way God CREATED it and WANTED it to be. God is not ashamed of creating sex, why should we be ashamed in teaching it the way scriptures talk about it? Yes, yes I know that you said it’s cool if sex is part of a small group discussion. However, why should we push sex away from the pulpit, off to the side, behind the scenes? Could this be the reason there is so much sexual immorality and lust in the world today, because for so long the church has been cautious and hesitant to discuss something that GOD MADE?
I also don’t understand or agree with your attacks on Rev. Young and other pastors who use creativity when teaching their congregations. You might claim that you don’t have a problem with creativity, but I don’t see that in your posts discussing your disgust with a sermon revolving around lust and sex. Jesus was creative when teaching the apostles. Why can’t pastors use the pulpit to explain and teach scripture in a creative way? Each teacher is a “separate and necessary part” of Christ’s body (1 Corinthians 12:27). You teach your way, and Rev. Young teaches his congregation in his way. He IS based in scripture, contrary to what you seem to believe. Each of us are different; we teach different; we hear different; we see different; but we all belong to the body of Christ (Romans 12:5). You acknowledge that Rev. Young has a large congregation, that he is somebody. I would dare say that Rev. Young is extremely appointed and anointed by God to teach literally millions of people worldwide. If you worry about his sermons, look at past series. He has taught the importance of prayer, of discipleship, of putting aside your own comfort when reaching out to the lost. The world needs these lessons. Our nation needs lessons about lust. God says that “Therefore by their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:20). Rev. Young has led an extremely large amount of people to Christ. God’s presence is strong at work through Rev. Ed Young’s teaching, whether people are comfortable with the material or not. When we are comfortable with our walk, we are in trouble. Jesus was creative. Jesus got uncomfortable with people. We should too.
JP,
Thanks for stopping by. You are right, we won’t agree or change our minds.
Yes, you are right. He has the attention of ‘millions’ of people and the best he can come up with is: Have sex with your spouse for seven straight days. I’m sure that is just what itching ears need to hear. I’m sure, said with full sarcasm mode engaged, this will be the salvation of many, many a lost individuals.
And you are right, and I think I said as much in my OP, it’s his church and he can do what he wants. I have no jurisdiction over him or his leadership. If his leadership approves, then who am I to question that? I even, without sarcasm mode engaged, repented for being judgmental. I spoke to him as one who also preaches and shares the burden of trying to hold people’s attention.
Still, I think it is a stupid idea, a bad idea, and that even if I agreed that there should be preaching about sex from the pulpit, which I don’t (it is a subject that should be taught by parents in the home), the attachment of the seven day challenge ruined it. As creative as Jesus was, I don’t think he ever made any challenges of this sort to his followers.
jerry
“So, you are saying that one verse in one chapter in one book to one church makes it a necessity that this topic be preached from a pulpit”
Nope, only that it gives him license to.
DTT,
Fair enough. But I’m in no way conceding here that this is a good idea, a necessary idea, or even a biblical idea.
jerry
What about teaching his followers to not have sex in order to fast and pray?
DTT,
I mentioned that in my OP. Substantially different ideas.
jerry
So teaching about abstaining from sex is alright?
DTT,
We have been over this. I stand by my point. You are not going to trick me into saying that I think it is OK to preach about sex in the pulpit. You are pulling one verse out of the entire canon of 66 books. I hardly think that makes your case. I agree there is license, can we just drop it? I’m not going to change my mind. The idea, the challenge, the sermon series is a dumb idea.
jerry
I totally agree with this… A pastor needs to set rules and guidelines for his church… but they should come from God. Not a man made rule, or routine.
I would just like to say that by reading this letter and post you are going directly against the Bible. You have judged the pastor and every person that has commented on this letter. I am not perfect by any means and am still growing in Christ, and I don’t understand how you can curse in your letter and then appologize for it thinking that makes it ok just because you are infuriated. A person like this is what my friends in college called a “Bible Beater”. This kind of per say “Christian” would tell you that everything you believe is wrong if it is not exactly what they believe and they are more judgemental than a non-believer. All you are doing by judging everyone who comments and pushing “your” belief on this subject is turning people away from God and Christianity. Because if you are a “Pastor” and a follower of Christ, why would anyone that does not know God want to learn about Him when all they see is His “follower” judging people and arguing every little thing. I pray that Christians will show how great God is with their lives and not turn away non-christians by displaying themselves as judgemental and pissy. God is Great, and we should show His greatness and compassion in our lives.
baseball,
your scorn and derision is duly noted. Oh, drats! You used the word ‘pissy’ in your comment. I guess I have to reject you out of hand. that’s too bad, you had so many thoughtful and well reasoned points.
jerry
ps–i didn’t ‘judge’ the good rev. i judged his stupid sex challenge. i stand by it. it is stupid. (or was stupid, since this is like a really old story.
I completely agree with you “Baseball Fitness”. 🙂 There’s no doubt that the “religious” people are the ones we need to watch out for. It’s upsetting to see “Christians” giving their opinion in such an angry/judgmental way. It makes non-believers stay away from the word of God. Pastor Ed is bringing sex back into the house of the one who created it. He also mentions that the FIRST place our children need to learn about sex is “the home” with their parents and the SECOND place is the church.
my sister took me to fellowhip church a little over a year ago she is a long time member. i have always believed in god, and always have prayed. but my life was full of depression, drugs, alcohol, fear, shame, nothing good. ed young has inspired me to turn my life over to christ and serve god instead of myself. i owe my new life to god, jesus and ed young!! who am i to judge my pastor or what he preaches, only god can do that. thanks ed!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike,
Great. I don’t think I judged ed young as much as I commented that his 7 day sex thing was stupid. Big difference, don’t you think? otherwise, good for you.
jerry
If the first word that comes to your wife’s mind is “disgusting” just by hearing a pastor mention the word “sex” in the pulpit and ask married couples to “try the challenge” out then it makes me wonder how she views her personal sex life, maybe not so good. Sounds to me like she needs to read the “Sexperiment” book and actually do the challenge to know what it really is about. I think it’s sarcastic to mention to someone that if she has 3 boys then she knows how to do it and doesn’t need a pastor telling her how. If you actually heard all his sermons you would know he is not telling us HOW TO DO sex and is definitely not giving us details on it either, he’s simply reminding us that God created sex and it should be important to us as much as it was for Him so challenged us to “try it”. It is easy for couples to get busy with kids and work that they do end up neglecting their spouses in that area which is why this topic is very important. If you aren’t yet aware our children know more about sex these days from school…and details that is! So why are we so appalled by a pastor mentioning that “big sex” in the context of marriage is important?? I can guarantee you that 5th graders know more about sex than you would imagine so why not let them hear that it is also important to wait until marriage before having sex?? The bible doesn’t condemn pastors preaching about sex.
I wished pastor Ed would read this and invite you to speak about it at church. It would be a great discussion to hear. Have a blessed day and Happy Thanksgiving!! I’m thankful for having a pastor who not only leads us to Christ but is so open about these topics and is very creative in every way! 😀
Fellowship,
You are so supportive of the idea, that you can’t even use your real name in your reply. Way to be supportive!!!
PS–the idea is still stupid.
jerry
Jerry,
Using my real name will not make you change your mind about the “stupid idea” as you call it. However, I don’t mind giving my name to you because I will keep backing Pastor Ed up. My name is Mayra…did that help you?? I’m sure not. Just like you told someone else here that if they don’t like what they watch on TV then “turn it off”, well, I suggest that if you think the idea is stupid and disagree, then “CHANGE THE CHANNEL, TURN IT OFF, READ SOMETHING ELSE”. Nobody is forcing you to read about this “Sexperiment”. People are not always going to agree so why don’t you just let him preach his way and you preach your way. Obviously it’s working because I’ve heard many GREAT comments from those who have tried it and the negative comments are from those who have no idea what it’s really about. Many couples wouldn’t even dare sign up for a “private sex talk” class so why not bring the word to them?? Oh and tell your wife Pastor Ed is not going around asking couples if they tried the challenge and how many days they had sex for?? We’re not forced to release details to him…there’s nothing improper about this “try it” challenge. With the thousands and thousands of members his church has he’s definitely doing something right! 😀
I hope you have yourself a great day!!